For my sake now, just about Nora. And I don't know if you've got your first memories of Nora when you first met her. Yes, easily you do. I'll just start now. Nora. Nora was the third child and only daughter of a professor at Newcastle University. They were a devout Catholic family. And the mother died relatively young. And Nora, as the daughter of two brothers, I think, had a kind of caring role from early on days. She herself got a good degree in chemistry. And when I first met her, she was working at the big soap people in Newcastle. What are they called? Anyway, it doesn't matter. As a chemist. And I thought that she was a lodger in my David's family's house. They lived in a big Victorian three-story house. And Nora had one room on the middle floor. And it was only years later that I discovered that not only was Nora not really a guest, pairing guest or lodger, she in fact owned the house. But it had come about in a rather strange way because poor Nora, as I said, was always in her youth a little bit. It didn't come first, if you like, in her own life. She had obviously, I think, wanted children and been attracted to children. And when this neighbour of hers, three up in this house similar to hers, Nora's, but one which was rented by this particular family, produced in rapid succession three little And particularly with the last one, Nora became very attached to him. That was Tony. And then the two families became a bit more entwined because Mary was really sorry for poor Nora because her father was suffering in the last stages of his life. I don't remember really whether it was Alzheimer's or not, but possibly. But Nora had a hard time. holding down a full-time job at the university and also trying to look after this old man in his last years. And Mary used to help out by doing the shopping for Nora often or taking parcels for her, just little things that she needed done. And this continued after the old man's death. And then, of course, after his death, there came the business that the house had to be sold and it divided. Rightly, an inheritance amongst three children. And so Nora, who had lived with her father in this house all her life, was faced with what to do next. And anyway, it all works out in the end that the Beauvils family home, the owner of that, decided that he didn't want to rent anymore. and he wanted to take his capital out and so that house was for sale. So in the end what happened was that Nora invested her money and bought the flat but kept on with Crichton the house sorry yes the house but kept on with Nora and Crichton living there as they always had done. And I don't know what financial arrangements around that. they exactly made. But it was, I suppose, rather strange because they gave certainly me the impression that, you know, it was their home. And whereas it was actually Norris. So, now. And what's your, I don't know, memories of meeting her? And because, at This time she wasn't married to Tom. No she was. She was. So Tom lived up there as well. No. Within three years. David's first year at university his aunt died. Tom's wife died. And at that point Nora is living with his parents in Newcastle. Now what's the next part of the story I'm trying to remember. Well where was Nora living? Because I'm confused now whether she was living some doors up in a different house or she was living in a part of what we thought or everyone thought was Mary Ann Crichton's house. That's right. She had a small bedroom on the first floor of Mary Ann Crichton's house. On the first floor, right. And that's when you first went to the house. Yes, and she seemed like this very sweet but extremely shy and lodger. And I had no idea at all. that in fact she owned the house. And did my dad or the brothers, did they have any idea? David certainly didn't. Right. And when did we, can you remember when you found that out? Now who told me? Someone told me. It's probably Jean, but I'm not, she's not certain. And were Nora and Jean close? Yeah. Oh, okay. It was Nora and Mary that were close. Yeah, yeah. No, um... I'm getting all confused now. I get confused between them, yeah. Now what's this? Oh. Please more notifications what she's doing. So yes, David can have the soup. I already read that. You could also ask David to go and get batteries. I suppose I could say yes. Where's this today? I work. So when you picture Nora's that situation why do you think Nora did what she was doing? Because she was aware that it was very awkward she was preserving Crichton's dignity to be honest and it wasn't you know I mean poor old Crichton couldn't And that's because, like, Crichton was the head of the household, the man in the household, and he had three boys, and it just would have... Yeah, it was a little bit, he wouldn't have liked it, and it was a bit undignified that, you know, they couldn't afford to buy their own house and that Mary would be her house. But she could... They'd been living there by that stage for about 10 years to 15 years. But when you say they, it was Tom and Nora living there? That sounds weird. No, no. Just Nora. Just Nora had that one bedroom on the first floor. She'd been living there ten years. No, I've been talking about Crichton and Mary. Okay, so how long do you think Nora was living in that? In the other house with her father. No, in the first floor. On the first floor. How long would it be she staying there? Well, that's what I was saying. She was already doing that when you've Yes, because Nora moved in Let me get this right Nora moved in when your father failed his 11 plus or 12 plus or whatever it was and was all set to go to not even the new class or high school, grammar school because he didn't do well enough to get into it, but to one of the, you know, real horrible schools. And that was when Nora paid for him to go to Barnard Castle. Barnard Castle. So, which was, you know, a local boys' public school. So, Nora was living with him then and had been living for some time and was deeply involved with the whole family. So, but when did she, when did it all, it started when her, And they were renting from someone this big house. And they went on over a period of, I suppose, six years from beginning to end. They had three boys. And Nora was their neighbour two door down, who was this young woman with a very decent job living in her father's house, a devout spinster, Catholic, kids. A bit put upon because they're two older brothers. One went off to the Navy and the other off to the RAF or something. She's left looking after dad at home. And as that, you know, Nora helped, Mary helps her out doing the shopping and keeping an eye on the old man. And then when my dad's 11, she kind of moves in. What? When my dad's 11, she moves in then. So we can figure out the date then. No, wait a minute. No. She had obviously moved in by then. Oh, yes. Before. But with enough of a relationship to have taken on paying his bloody money. But even that she did so discreetly because what your dad told me was that she gave the money at the same time every month to the father's account so that he could immediately pay it out. Yeah. Knowing he couldn't have it beforehand because he would have spent it probably. on something else or it would have eaten up or whatever and he never paid but it looked as if he was paying for it. And Nora did that. And the house was full of her things. You know, that beautiful Chinese bowl in the hall, but she never said they were hers. These things, the odd thing. She was the best Catholic, you know, you could imagine. And obviously an intelligent one too. She wasn't someone who, you know, slavishly Pleaved in, oversimplistically, and a God in heaven with a long beard. But she was a really good Catholic. Yeah, no, I remember going to the funeral and seeing how they lived and the relationship with the local church and everything. Yeah. No, she was definitely like, I don't know, the best possible sort of community church going Catholic you could imagine. She was just the most possible. I mean, she took to country life, where a rather late in life was the only one to live where they did, sort of, you know, after Nora was retired. So can we work out when she left Newcastle and with Tom and when she married Tom, what sort of time that was? I've got a rough idea of when she moved in to the first floor, but I have no idea when it could have been or By the time your dad is 1920 she is what she's living in in in the place and obviously she's supported And she supported I don't know how far she actually paid for the whole lot, but she probably did Tony's Tony went to Dartmouth College, you know the late the naval boarding school And I mean the reason but of course the big The smile the thing that makes you smile and say there you go Is that of the three boys the only one who didn't benefit from? Nora's middle-classness and money was John who actually ended up the richest of all of them of course because he was very hard-working Which is not what you could have said of your father, but you know, it was more true of Tony But John, you know, went to just the local, what do you call it, school, ended up leaving at 15 and worked really hard for a company called Something Box. And then in the end, the mentor he had there died, but not before he sent him to Scotland because the factory was branching out. They did metal things. Yeah, widgets. And they were doing widgets. But going back to Nora. Yeah. And when she left, you said something when Dad was 19, and I guess... What's the age difference between you and my dad? Me and your father. Year or something, or what? I should know that, shouldn't I? Were you in the same year? No, it was the same year. It was only four months or something. So when you were both 19, where was Nora then? Was she with Tom then? Laura by then, that's why I'm trying to remember, it's difficult actually. When I first went there, she was definitely still in the house, because at that point there was also the drama that her brother, which remember she had two brothers, the one that was with the Air Force, he came back from the Air Force, was being discharged, you know, and so obviously it was still near as anything to his family. It was his sister's last. And so he came and stayed in the other room, which was quite something. He was a very blustery, blustery, whiskered. But there would have been no Tom at that time. What? No Tom at that time. They weren't sleeping together in Gospels. I'm losing everything here. Tom at this point is married to Mary's sister. living in London. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And so at some stage after this 19 and the brother coming back, maybe a year or two or three later, Nora moves down to Tom's Manor, which is Southeast England sort of thing. Remembering that Nora is that much younger than Mary. Nora's in between sort of whatever. What we're talking about is a fact, and Mary was, Mary was the middle sister of a He was a quite strung out family because he did shipbuilding and he was away a lot. Anyway, sort of you... But it's sometime after you were both 19 and that Nora moved south. No, well I'm trying to think now. It's so long since I've thought of this. It's hard to remember dates as well. But... Can you remember when you first met Tom, for instance, anything like that? No, I... As I remember going down to Newcastle for the first time, because I had never stayed at anybody's house overnight. And that was the first time, you know... And what room did you sleep in? I slept in that little front room next to the bathroom at the back of the house. What, on the first ground floor? No, the first floor. So she would have been also on the first floor? Yes. She was in the bigger room. There was that little room at the back, the bathroom, quite a big room, and then another big room along the front of the house, which was Mary and Crichton's room. Nora's room was the big room next to it, which is the same size as the one fastening onto the road, but not onto the road. Then the little bathroom, the little tiny room, that was the first floor. And where did Dad sleep? Were all three brothers in the house that first night you slept there? An attic. All three of them were there? I think all, yeah, they could have had, but when they got older, there was one, two, three, four, five bedrooms in the house. I'm just trying to imagine what it was like when you first went there, the first time you slept at someone else's house. Who was there? Were there three boys upstairs? Or just maybe away? At that point, David, his older brother, John, you know, Rachel and Tony's were, father, Rachel, Tony's, you know, parent, if you like. He was a working man already because, as I said, he didn't have the benefit of Nora and her middle-class notions. And so he went off to something box to be in a, you know, wake his way up in some kind of job there. So he probably wasn't at home then? No, he was at home, yes, because how could he afford to be in it? In those days, It was a bit like now. So it's a crowded house. There would have been three boys and there was you and then there was Nora. Yes, but no, Nora's brother was, he came but the weeks that I was there he wasn't there because he traveled with the RAFs. It was all around the world so as long as he was away for months and other times he'd be there for six months. So he probably took your room, the one that you stayed in. Yes. So, but my image of Mary always was so far. Well, at the point that I went first there, I remember, I couldn't believe the number of shirts she was ironing every week because there was Crichton. At that point, Martin was there. There was, and she had Crichton, Martin, and the three boys who were all living at home, and they would all be, most of them, in a situation where they'd have a shirt a day. And I remember once, you know, obviously trying to help her, and doing some ironing for her. And I remember her laughing because she was very grateful for me doing her ironing. She said, but she said, I couldn't do as good a job as you. You realize you're taking a quarter of an hour of shirt. You know, I was doing it perfectly all the way. Yeah, no, I remember being taught about ironing there. Well, I was taught, I was taught, not all of it, obviously, but a considerable number of it by my mother's mother. and my grandmother there because she was a lady's housemate that's what she did for a job and I can remember her telling me about damp dusting was the big thing she taught me about that you always damp dust anywhere that's got any degree of dust because otherwise you're just brushing the dust into the air and it floats around land somewhere else so damp dusting was very important but also about always always lifting things up and never just dusting around you know what it was to be a slattern And she taught me, the other thing she taught me was washing up dishes. The first sign of a bad dishwasher, you hear the clink of china. Every time that you clink a piece of china together with another piece of china, you are shortening its life. Because even if it doesn't fracture at that point, it will set up little loads of aberrations the next time you do it. So you never put plates, for instance, sacked in the sink. That was Mary. Quiet Mary. Back to Nora and particularly Tom. That wasn't Mary. Oh, who was that? Who gave you that story about China? My grandmother. How did your grandmother come into this story? Well, I don't know if we were talking about grandmothers and my grandmother taught me because she was a housemaid. So that was my mother's mother. The one who married the chairman. Yes. That's another story to capture. But back to Tom. When does Tom come onto the scene? Because I remember going to see Tom. Oh, Tom was the loveliest, bumbling. So gentle, yeah. What? He's probably the gentlest human that I've got a recollection of. Yes, yes. But when did he first appear in your memory that you can clearly remember, would you say? No, I just remember him as the husband of David's aunt who was tragically dying. and that he was a nice man and he lived in London. That's all. So that was before they got married. So there was nothing between them then. Who? Oh, between Tom and Nora. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. There's nothing. Nora was simply a spinster girl in her 20s living as a lodger. But how's Tom? Even exist if she's not dating. Because it's Mary's elder sister's husband. Wow. Now that confuses me. Okay. Right. Now I did not realise that. Oh, because that's why I'm saying. Mary's elder sister's husband. Who was dying. Yeah, her elder sister was dying. So that's also why there's quite, in a way, what do you call it, a meta-family relationship. Yes. So she sort of, in a way, adopted Tom's family. - Yeah. What happened, how they got in touch was Nora's living with Mary and Mary's sister is in London with Tom. Nora, remember, works at the university as a trained chemist and she was very big in the women's science thing, you know, these guys got a name you would know but I've forgotten now. Women academics, scientists, what's the name of it? She was chairman of that. Carewoman. What? Carewoman. Yes. And she, yes, it would be chairwoman, wouldn't it? Anyway, she often had to go to London for conferences for that. It was a sort of trade union-y type thing. And when she was going to London, after she got, obviously she got to know Mary, she got to know Mary's family. Then she started, She was staying in London, staying with Mary's sister and her husband. Right. Got you. So, and then, of course, when Jess got ill, Jess had bowel cancer. You know, it was a way of Mary keeping in touch with her sister, you know, because Nora was going back and forward. And, you know, and Nora, during that time, got to know Tom. Yeah, no, I didn't know that family connection with Tom. Hmm. But she ended up basically kind of through that connection adopting all the... Being adopted by, yeah. Well, I mean, in a way she pretended to be adopted by, but she really adopted the children and looked after them and provided the house and the funding and care for that family in that way. And it's a very interesting story. It's very unusual and it also kind of makes sense to me a little bit with her being a kind of educated, powerful university woman at that early age. She's in a way like, I don't know, it's like expressing that power that she has but in just this, it was only acceptable to do in this kind of understated way. Like, because she must have been much more educated than all these other women around her. at that stage, no? Because she'd been to university and she was a chemist and she was quite high up. Who else would have been there like that? I mean... Now in Bedford? No, no, before. Just being a chemist, going to university. Oh, who are we talking about now? Nora. She's not the one that went to... Nora. We're talking about Nora. Nora, yeah. And so she's like at a very early time in history, like before your generation. Well, I suppose to the extent... Nora is, if you like, halfway between me and Mary's generation. So in my day, as I said, something like 3% of women, I think, went to university. In Nora's lifetime, it wouldn't have been that different, but it's certainly already relatively small. But on the other hand, as women, we didn't pride ourselves on that. You know, you had to actually very quickly learn that might please your parents and your teachers if you were clever, but it certainly didn't get you anywhere with your age group if you were a woman to be clever it was still very much you know on what you look like and you know how attractive you were etc because men got to do the choosing and Nora was always plain and shy It also makes me for some reason think a little bit about Margaret Thatcher. She's another chemist educated of what would Margaret Thatcher be your generation or older? No older than me. So Nora's generation really. They were both chemists at the same time they probably knew each other. I think I think isn't Margaret Thatcher more They're like even older than Nora, they're a generation up, I think. That's an interesting family tree, I guess. I'm just imagining this sort of strange connection in the family tree. And so explain to me this. So which of it was Crichton? No, Mary's oldest sister whose name was? Jess. Okay. And Harvey is their surname. And that was Tom's first marriage. First wife, yeah. And they didn't have children? Yes, they did. Elizabeth. She's the one who lives on Jersey. Now she's moved back off Jersey, but she was in Jersey. We just got it. I just got a Christmas card from her. Oh. Hmm. So when I first knew your father, Tony was about 16 and Liz, Tom's daughter, was About the same age. And can you remember when my dad discovered that Nora had been that generous to his, like an under house? Was it a shock or something? My memory now is that none of the boys knew and they were amazed when I discovered it. So you told them, yeah. And that would have been roughly when? I don't know. When did I discover it? I have no idea so it would be wrong for me to say. It must be 20 years ago I think. Maybe when Newcastle, when the house got sold or when... What? When Gospers, when the street, what was the street called again? It was in Gospers. Yes. I wanted to remember it. But I guess That house got sold and had to be divided up. It would have been discovered that it wasn't. They didn't own the house ever, if you remember. Okay. And then what happened was, again... Maybe when... I know that Nora was... There was an overlap between Nora leaving the house and going and living with Tom. And then what... Letting them live in the house rent-free. Because Tom always... I know, I knew about it through Tom. It was Tom who told me. Because he used to laugh at Nora's utter ludicrous generosity. Because not only had she supported these boys by sending them off to boarding school, not even let anybody know it was her doing it. And when she married Tom, she made sure that Mary and Crichton, but I'm sure it was for Mary she did it you know remained in the house and their life wasn't changed and still to the extent that these boys had no idea that they were so beholden to her but that was very much Nora she was as I said the best Catholic I've never met and so did when my dad found out did he sort of thank Nora did he go there and make a thing or is it just sort of like It wasn't the sort of thing that anybody would have said anything about. Oh, I would have definitely brought some flowers. In those days your father certainly wouldn't have. But I don't remember. It's not the detail that I remember of who was along. I don't think Tom was still alive. But I mean, he would have. So when you say in those days you wouldn't do that, can you describe why you wouldn't do that? Well, that generation wouldn't. I mean, obviously, I must have I can't imagine obviously that I wouldn't but I'm trying to now picture why what my what my father would have felt and what he would have felt was the proper thing to do with regard to Nora in other words to thank her or say something or just no he would definitely feel that was proper not to mention her because Nora wouldn't want her she'd be embarrassed she would have been definitely true bereaver why would she be embarrassed i can understand her wanting to hide it from uh to protect crichton's respect and what have you but this is but why would she be embarrassed we should embarrass to be seen yes she didn't want she was a truly humble soul she didn't want to be seen in the light of someone who'd done a good deed okay and to be seen by other people to be almost like you know virtue signaling is the thing they call it now they've got a word for it. You know, she would definitely not want ever to be able to see virtue signalling. No, but she didn't because she didn't tell anyone. So it's still, yeah, I mean, it would have probably been a bit embarrassing, but I still can't quite imagine her being embarrassed. Well, it's not a question of embarrassment. She was a truly moral person. Yeah, she wouldn't want to tell anyone. It would have given her pain to have done what she knew to be wrong. She would never do that Yeah but she doesn't do it She hasn't done it But you're saying why didn't she do it No I'm saying why didn't that Like she wouldn't have felt Like none of that story makes any sort of Sense to a modern person is what I'd say So it's interesting to find out You would understand why she did Like the right thing The proper thing when she's like Not making a big deal about it Not virtue signalling at school, protecting Christ and what have you. But when she's like 80 years old and my dad is 60 or what have you. She would have been shy and she'd have regretted it because I think she didn't want to be seen like that. It didn't please her in any way that meant anything to her, either in God's eyes or anything else. It was a bit of a failure of modesty that is a quality in herself that she prized. But, you know, I just thought it would certainly not have given, you know, I mean, obviously she's the sort of person who clearly would have given a little pleasure if someone said thank you to, and then she'd have felt guilty for being blessed. Yeah. You know, she was just that nice as all. And how do you think Dad felt about it? Did he feel like shocked, surprised, Did he feel guilty? Did he feel happy? How would he have felt? Not shocked. I think he must, I think that he would feel, I think he knew his father well enough. A little bit of shame would come into it. But on the other hand, he was also reasonable and he liked to, he loved his father and sort of, you know, wasn't he, that was just, Crichton was not practical. And they wouldn't blame him too much, I don't think. Okay, but that's to do with Christ. And how would he feel about Nora? Because I guess there would have been quite a lot of times when I would get in the car, sometimes I'd drive, sometimes I'd drive, we'd go and see Tom and Nora. And by that time, my dad, who was sitting in the front seat next to me, knew about this. what Nora had done for him. So I'm just wondering how you think, and he didn't say anything to Nora, so it's just I'm trying to imagine how he felt in that situation, because I didn't know obviously at that time. So how would he have felt about Nora, would you say, to do with this story? How did it feel to him? I mean, your dad knew how to be happy, and I think that he was grateful, and he thought that she, I know he thought, that she got as much If not more out of the exchange than the Bogovil family did. They got money and support and whatever and she got a family and she didn't have one. That would be his view. Funny times. Super sweet story. Like very generous. It's also got this kind of extension family and a little bit of what it was like in because you would describe how would you describe that street in and Gosford at that time because Gosford now is quite a posh area of Newcastle but at that time it wouldn't have been would you say it still was then so would you say they were at that time middle class not working class of course they were middle class the whole thing is the Bowles are middle class family the Harvey's were not but they were the Harvey's were you know her father was a shipbuilder worked in the shipbuilding yards but at the same time the Harvey's daughter went to university. Jean. Jean didn't ever go to university. Oh no she was the secretary right she went to Betchley that's what I mean so it was it was Nora who went to university. No I mean it's the usual story it's the same story I always get them confused so I'm just trying to picture it so yeah they were the working class And she somehow ended up in Bletchley. Right. And then at the British Council, I think you said. She worked for the British Council, yeah. Well, Nora was the educated one, middle class. And she went to university and a chemist and all of that. Nora's family, her father was a professor of some physics or something in Newcastle University. And had three children, two sons and Nora. And, you know. I had a picture in my head that it was kind of Newcastle working class era at that time. No, nothing like that. In fact, Crichton was a big bad boy. I mean, Crichton was a poppet, you know, and I liked him greatly. He was a terrible flirt, you know, I mean, and I don't know any, in a way, I'm torn because he was such, he was a kind, nice man, and he gave the impression of truly loving his wife. But nevertheless, with my experience of life, I find it difficult to believe that he didn't have a few affairs. There was certainly, he flirted like mad without anything in the skirt. He was a very good looking man. What are we talking about this for? Oh, yes. He was a child of a family of, his father was a lawyer. And his, had six children. And his father tragically died of a heart attack. She was really fierce. Ria? Ria. Is that her name? R-E-A-R. Okay. To bring up. To Ria. Okay. And what was her name, Granny Boval? Can we remember that? Her name was just Granny Boval. You wouldn't actually call her by name. I don't think. But anyway, the children's names are fantastic. There was Shaft. Shaftu, Crichton, George. There's another brother in I got Arnold. Arnold, Shaftu, Crichton, George and the two girls, Olive and Peggy. But that was Shaftu, wonderful old name. The oldest two were Shaftu and Crichton. Arnold was the one that were Crichton. I remember Crichton telling me when his mother sent him to the railway station to get his brother who had been invalided off the front to meet his brother at the station. And how he went and he looked up and down the train and couldn't see his brother at all and the train stopped and all the doors were shut and the train was going off and he couldn't see him anywhere. And then he suddenly saw a very old man walking from the back of the train. And I then realised it was his brother. Arnold had lost his, you know, that horrible gangrene they got from foot rot in the trenches. He got that and had lost a foot. But, you know, he lost more than a foot in the war. He was 18 when he went. And his own brother didn't recognise him when he came back. And that war was about the same length as the Ukraine war now. Yeah, isn't it? I think. Depending on... Well, anyway, they, the Bovals, from that point of view, were fallen on hard times because, you know, Greitens' father died and left this poor woman trying to bring up all these kids. And I told you why he always said he was such a totally incompetent with money. You know, the story of the chickens. Oh, long, long, long time ago. Say that story, yeah. Yes. Well, Crichton said that obviously his mother was finding it hard to feed the family. There was no money whatsoever around. And obviously, like when he got to be 13 or 14, he had things he wanted to spend money on. And so he was scratching around in his head as to what he could do. And he suddenly thought, people, everybody eats eggs for breakfast and you just have a couple of chickens and they'll lay eggs for you. And so he invested slowly over a period of, He spent months, enough money to buy himself a chicken, which he did. And then I had this, I remember it took ages to describe this to me. It took him ages to realise why the chicken was not producing eggs, that he needed to have a cockerel as well. And how, you know, then he managed to solve the cockerel problem. And then when his chickens were first laying eggs, he couldn't understand it because they were just laying wet things on the ground. And then he discovered that you need to feed them grit so they make a shell around the egg. And after this long period of learning, he actually got his first dozen eggs from the chickens that he'd got and went off to sell them and found it was really easy to sell them and people wanted to drive out fresh eggs and wanted to order from next week. And when he came back to tell his mother, his mother's reaction was, She said, "Oh, that's wonderful then. That'll be a great contribution for today." And she took all the money from him and didn't leave him any. And he said after that, you know, he never felt the same about earning money or having money. You have it, you just give it or you'd spend it as quickly as you can and get rid of it. Okay, let's see. I don't know if that recorded, but hopefully it did.